12. Marriage Matters: Neurodiversity in Relationships with Mairi Girgis

Hi, I'm Kate Morris.

And I'm Dave Whittingham.

On today's episode, we have a special guest. It's Mari Gurgis, who has a master's of counseling and years of experience in working with couples and families.She's done research into neurodivergence and the Christian community, and today we're putting tricky questions to her around marriage and parenting. Welcome to episode two of Family and Faith. And, Mari, thank you so much for joining us.We have been inviting questions from people for people exactly like you, Mari, people who work with families of all different types. And so we have some questions that we're really excited to put to you today in order to kind of pick your brains, hear your experience around this.So thank you for joining us.

Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you.

So you are in counseling. You've been working with lots of different families.Can you tell me what gave you the interest in working with families, particularly with neurodivergent members?

Oh, it's a great question, isn't it?Look, probably 30, almost 30 years ago, when I started being interested in people, I trained as a counsellor and we really knew nothing about neurodivergence back then, or very, very little.And so it really wasn't until I had close family members, my kids, diagnosed with ADHD at that point that I started to have conversations with lots of other mums and other people. And gradually my interest and awareness in neurodiversity started to really grow.And so over the last few years, as I've done some research and got talking to people, it's just kind of grown and grown from there. So I really love it. Being able to offer something that I probably didn't have when I was younger. Yeah.

Hi, everyone. Dave here. And Mari, thank you so much.And I'm so glad that as your career has progressed, you've continued to grow and learn and discover more in this world. So thank you so much for doing that. I, personally, I'm a person who's neurodivergent and I have a neurotypical wife.And I think that's not an uncommon thing at all. And you work with lots of couples, I think, that are in that situation. Can you help us, Mari? What are the.Obviously, there are lots of blessings in that, but what are the key difficulties that you see that people face regularly in that situation?

It's a great question.I think I might go back a little bit, if that's okay, and just say one of the things I think that has been Difficult and challenging in this space for a long time is that we have a lot of representations of what marriage should look like through Christian books, through preaching, through a sense of what a neurotypical relationship will look like.And very often what I see is couples who are trying to be neurotypical in their relationship and feeling really overwhelmed by the reality that their relationship doesn't look like that. Having been in that situation myself, I know how challenging and frustrating that is.So I think one of the first things that we've got to wrestle with is how do we have a neurodivergent relationship that looks really different to what particularly the Christian world has set up as the ideal relationship? So I think I want to start there, really. Let's take down some of the things that. Yeah. See, set people up for failure in the first place.

That's so helpful, Mari, because the Bible does tell us things about marriage and tells us really important things about marriage. But so often we miss the freedom that the Bible gives us in applying that in any and every situation.And it sounds like what you're saying is that there are. Too often we give the impression that it has to look in a particular way that isn't necessarily tied to the Bible.It's just tied to our culture or our Christian culture, our church culture, that has locked in something that God says, no, no, no, there's freedom there.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely spot on. We're always adding things, aren't we? So going back to what does it mean to love?Well, what does it mean to, you know, have a relationship with God that is honoring to him? You know, what does it mean to have sacrificial love in a family? You know, how do we even.Things like, how do we understand sin when someone's maybe dysregulated or experiencing things that relate to the way that their brain works differently?And often we are labeling people or putting things onto people that actually cause, you know, cause them struggle more than they might necessarily need to? Yeah.

And so, Mari, can you tell us what are some of the things some of these couples will be coming to you, some of the frustrations they might be feeling in their marriage that they want to unpick with you?

Yeah, look, there's. There's some things that come up pretty consistently. So probably communication is a really big one.So often just differences in communication that come out of neurodivergence, a sense of distance, sense of isolation, maybe loneliness for both parties, where both people feel like they're in a relationship they want to they're committed to each other, but they feel like they've grown apart and don't really know how to rebuild that connection.Things like, you know, parenting, how do we co parent together is a really big thing, particularly when you have different ways of doing things, different neurotypes, which I'm sure is. Is something you've talked about a fair amount already on this podcast.And often what begins the conversation is, you know, often a neurodiver, neurotypical partner saying, I don't know what to do. I'm burning out. I'm really struggling. And a neurodivergent partner saying, I don't really know how to do this. My partner is really unhappy with me.I don't know how to fix this. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. So often it starts with that.And there's usually at the beginning, a whole lot of hopelessness that comes along with that. So my goal is always to see if we can shift that into something that's productive.

And so, Mari, when you have couples coming in and one might be feeling at a loss and hopeless, one might be feeling as though they're the disappointment in the relationship, and you're recognizing that there's a communication style difference, perhaps one style might be a more typical style and the other style might be less typical, but both are styles that have worked for these people in the past. And coming together with this clash of styles, how do you unpick working out how to build a bridge between these two styles?

Yeah, look, I think one of the things that is really difficult in communication is you've got two people generally who they're used to, their way of communication. It seems normal to them. And of course it is, isn't it? Like in our own brains, we think that everybody else communicates in the same way.So I think one of the first things for me as a counsellor is really working hard to understand what's going on for each person internally. So I tend to.And everybody's different, but the way I tend to approach it is to work really hard on understanding the way each person is thinking, the way they're processing information, the way they are feeling, what is being said to them and how they respond to that, what's going on in their internal world. So one of the things we talk about a lot is double empathy, the problem of double empathy.So I think, unfortunately, for a long time, autistic people, for example, have been accused of a lack of empathy. And what we've started to realize is that that's really not the case at all.What's happening is two people might have empathy, they might feel a sense of what's going on, but it's like they're missing each other constantly.And in any relationship, but particularly in a mixed neurotype relationship, often what we're doing is we're digging down into our positions of safety and we're effectively talking at each other and missing each other in that process the whole way along.So when we start to really understand what's happening in the other person's world, it really allows us to be open to new possibilities of communication.

So how do we do that? Because it sounds like what you're saying is both actually want to be empathetic, so the desire is good and there.So how do we, I guess, bring those levels of empathy back into alignment so that they're not missing each other?

Yeah, I think education's a really big start. So really helping each person in the relationship to understand themselves and then once you understand yourself, to understand the other person.So if I can give you an example of this, so very common situation that happens, let's just say neurotypical wife, autistic husband. So this is going to be a generalization, but it's a common one.So neurotypical wife has a whole lot of ideas and she's expressing those and she wants an answer. She's maybe thought about the issue for a while and she wants an answer.Autistic husband is processing all that information, and in their mind they're trying to work out what are the possible answers to either the question that's been asked or the scenario that is being presented. And that's going to take time. They're running through the options, trying to come up with an ideal scenario.On the other hand, the neurotypical wife is looking at her husband, who is now not communicating, quite silent, potentially, maybe has walked off, still processing in his mind. And she's made a whole lot of assumptions about what's going on for him.Eventually she says, look, you're clearly not interested, or you've just walked off, or I'm frustrated.Which then further leads to a sense of damage because he is actually processing the information, trying to come up with an answer that he, you know, thinks might be helpful or contributing to the conversation. And so in that scenario, then what happens is both people make assumptions about what's going on for the other person.So often my goal is to help unpack what's going on for the other person and verbalize that, and that's Hard, I think, when, particularly for the neurodivergent person who maybe has shut down at that point quite dysregulated and struggles to articulate what they're feeling. And then you're a typical person who by that point may be quite critical and frustrated.So it's a pretty common scenario that happens in relationships, and you can imagine how that can get repeated.

And you can see as well how that can also be present in relationships between parents and children as well, whether neurodivergent parents, a neurotypical child, or the other way around, where there are expectations of what communication should be made at that moment and the other person isn't meeting those expectations.And so being critical or being confused by the communication style that we can see, as opposed to understanding the different point of view and kind of working out how to communicate in a way that's understood by the other person on both. On both parts. Yeah, yeah.

We've used the word curiosity a lot, haven't we, of being curious, certainly in the parenting context, being curious about our child, but actually also being curious about ourselves.

But we're.

We're putting that into the marriage context as well, being curious about the other person. But I think what you're saying, Marie, is it's important to be curious, but the best time or the most helpful time is not always in the moment.Maybe in the moment, I don't know, would you say step back or. There needs to be enough grace to say, hang on, something's going on here that maybe we both don't understand.We need to step away and then come back and be curious together about what's going on. Is that helpful? Is that unhelpful in the way I'm putting it there?

Yeah, I think there's some. There's some immediate challenges when, when you've got neurodivergent parents, maybe one or both, and then you've got neurodivergent children.So we know that, you know, there's already a challenge for a neurodiver, neurodivergent person in moving into relationship. We actually don't have a whole lot of picture of what a healthy relationship or family looks like.So, you know, we do a lot of things in terms of, you know, what does it look like when you're dating? You know, you go and see a good, feel good movie. You see pictures of that.But when do you ever see pictures or representations of what an average neurodivergent mixed neurotype family looks like? There's just not a lot of Healthy representations of that are there.So you've got somebody who is, you know, first of all, stepping into a relationship, a close relationship with one other person. And then when you add one kid and then two kids and maybe more, more than two kids, suddenly there's a lot of moving parts going on, isn't there?And in a neurodivergent family, as I experience, you know, that can change not only from day to day, but matter half from minute to minute. And so you're often having to think very quickly on your feet, aren't you?And so if you don't have strategies in place ahead of time or ways of picking up the pieces when everything falls apart, or strategies for regulating yourself, whether you're neurotypical or neurodivergent, then things can very quickly unravel. And I think that's where it's challenging.And certainly, as you say, Dave, when you're in the middle of that, there's never gonna be the time to address the problems of what is happening in the marriage relationship. That's just gonna really add to the tension and stress that's already there. Yeah.

And, Mari, you mentioned that one thing you do see in couples is this sense of isolation, which I suppose it sounds like communication might be a real aspect of how that isolation comes about. Can you talk about what that looks like when you see people with that deep sense of isolation and lack of support?

It's a little bit of a cliche, isn't it? But, you know, that recognition that you can be more alone in a relationship than alone, literally.And I think that often shows up for both parties in a neurodivergent relationship, you know, and that's a. It's a consistent thing.We know from research and data that neurotypical people will find communication with other neurotypical people typically pretty easy. And the same is true for autistic people or people with adhd.Communicating with somebody with similar a neurotype can be so much easier, you know, less hoops to jump through. So certainly I would say that in a healthy relationship, being able to have those external supports is really, really important.In fact, probably vital in a. In a relationship.Unfortunately, often what happens is that the places where you might look for support, for example, in your Christian community, are often the places where people are criticized or blamed or shamed for the way their relationship doesn't look like, rather than being encouraged, built up, lifted up, supported. So that adds then another layer of isolation and a sense of. I think shame is a big, big one. Yeah.

So, Mari, I mean, we've talked about the way that churches can do it wrong and. And preachers can do it wrong. Where do you think the gospel impacts here?To say this is the way forward for marriages and this is the way to help with that isolation, the lack of communication, all those sort of things. What's the good news?

Oh, look, the good news that I always come back to is, you know, it's the Holy Spirit that brings change in people. So if I look at the statistics of neurodivergent marriages or marriages where there are neurodivergent children, the statistics are depressing.You know, they're not encouraging at all. But I believe in a God who can bring change and who does bring change. And I think that's gotta start with who are we in Christ?You know, who does Christ make us to be? And I very much believe that God doesn't make accidents. Whether your brain functions one way or another, you know, is not.It's not coincidental, it's not accidental. It's not, you know, it's not a result of. Of sinful nature. It's the reality that we need all types of people in the world.And we can see that through history, people who are neurodivergent or neurotypical have created incredible change in. Of great value in our Christian communities. And so, you know, I have to believe that God has a purpose for neurotypical, divergent marriage.You know, it certainly shapes us. And I think if. If nothing else, that opportunity to lean into a savior who does have the answers, I think is a really, really valuable thing.So one of the things that's been most helpful for me, I think, as a.As a neurotypical spouse, is having people who get it, who pray for me, who encourage me, who challenge me to be faithful in the way that I live in my marriage.

Yeah, that's a really lovely picture because I think. I think of marriage, obviously, as the two people, and it is.But the Christian picture is that actually there are more people invested in that marriage than just the two.So I love what you're saying about other people praying for you and helping you along the way, because we are a family, a wider Christian community, and we should be committed to each other's marriages. That's lovely.

I think one of the things that.I think one of the things that really drove me into investing time in this is not having the resources when I was first married and, you know, seeing that when we have the right resources, we can actually grow in relationship.So I am very, very excited that as research comes along and as it's very gradual, but as more Christians step into this space, that we do have the opportunity to grow really healthy, strong relationships.

And that ability to grow and change doesn't disappear if you've been struggling for a certain amount of time, does it, Mari? In terms of you can be in the blackest of black holes in your marriage, and there is still hope, there is still a chance to turn around.Do you see people who just come to you who are just broken and feel like they're right on the edge and there is no hope for their marriage? Is that a common experience?

Look, that's probably the most common experience I have.When people come, one of the things that comes up pretty consistently is that for a lot of neurodivergent couples, they have already been to sometimes multiple marriage counselors. But without the neurodivergent lens, we know that statistically that makes things worse. It tends to dig people into the problematic behavior.So one thing that I would say to couples is, please do really good homework on finding a couple's counselor that really understands neurodivergence. That's really gonna make a significant difference in both strategies and outcomes. That's an important thing to be aware of.And I would say one of the things that is really important is for both. Both people in the relationship to be invested and keen to work in their relationship.So often the biggest challenge is where one person is doing all they can to try and improve what's happening in the relationship, but they really are alone, you know, so we can't always have a positive outcome. Sometimes it is too hard. But God is still faithful in that, you know?And I do believe in a God who will encourage and take somebody through what sometimes leads to the breakdown of relationship. But there is a lot of hope.And I think as we start to really understand the impact of neurodivergence on relationship, including the neurotypical neurodivergence, we can actually start to make some real headway.And sometimes that's mixing things up, you know, communicating in different ways, you know, adding written communication rather than just verbal communication. Sometimes it's actually, you know, really thinking out of the box.A lot of successful neurodivergent couples that I know live in two parts of the house, you know, And a lot of people from the outside of their relationship might think, oh, that's a terrible thing, but actually, that works really well for them. It helps them to have their own space, to be regulated, to be able to engage more fully when they are together.You know, sometimes that means thinking about, you know, getting in that cleaner or that person that's going to do the yard work or fix, you know, help with some of those executive functioning challenges in a practical way, rather than feeling that shame of, oh, I should be able to, you know, get this thing together. I should be able to manage that. So I think curiosity and creative thinking is really, really valuable in this kind of space.

Yeah, I think that's right, Murray.And we're constantly talking about how important it is to be curious and creative in working out what supports people need, what the way forward might be, and to be working together with people.And I love that your attitude is to be working with couples for them, to design ways that work for them, ways that are going to respond to who they are in a way that is founded on the Bible, looking to live for God, but seeing the freedoms and flexibilities that we have in that in order to be able to respond to how the people have been made, how they interact with the world and need to interact with each other as well. It sounds like there's just so much hope and so much positive, so many positive stories that you would have there through your experience.What are some things people have said to you as they've gone through this process of thinking about themselves, thinking about each other, and working sacrificially in order to support the other one and support their marriage? What are some things, stories of hope and happiness that you've seen there?

Yeah, you know, I think sometimes it's the little things. So when you're working with neurodivergent couples, it's slow. It's very, very slow. And it can be really discouraging because it is so slow.So often it is the little successes, the little wins, you know, maybe it's that, you know, everybody in the family is a little bit more regulated. So we know that when couples, when parents are regulated, kids are more regulated.So often it's those little changes, those little tweaks that lead to everybody being a little bit more regulated that then lead to progress. Sometimes it's those little things of, you know, we managed to have a cup of coffee together. It was really enjoyable and we enjoyed that.Sometimes it is, you know, seeing the neurotransmitters, neurodivergent parent being able to recognize that they can be an incredible ally to the neurodivergent child, you know, so as a neurotypical parent, I can work really hard to understand what's going on for my kids. But my Brain doesn't work that way. So I don't get it in the way that my husband does.So being able to celebrate those connections and foster those connections can be really helpful. And sometimes that spending time with, you know, maybe the neuro.Neurodivergent members of the family, you know, maybe a mom and daughter or a dad and son, helping them to build connections that are really strong for them, which then takes the pressure off the neurotypical parent. So I think it's really celebrating the small wins in this work is really, really important.It's not going to be, you know, we wake up tomorrow and everything's fine. There is a reality that this is an ongoing.There are things in this that are challenging in an ongoing sense, and that's okay, you know, so pull in all those supports, you know, find new ways of doing things. And I think it's always exciting when I can see the neurotypical partner getting support and being able to find their place in the world.And then you're a neurodivergent partner finding their own supports and their place in the world. And often that's not together, you know, often that's separately.But that separate support and encouragement allows them to come together in a way that's much more productive. So there are real positives that are coming out of this and more research is highlighting, you know, the things that we can do differently as well.

How encouraging.

Just to shift focus a little bit. We've talked about the relationship between the neurotypical and the neurodivergent parents and how that affects their marriage. What about.What advice can you give when you've got different parents, parents coming from very different perspectives, trying to parent the same child and having very different. A very different picture of how to parent that child, that neurodivergent child. What advice would you give to that couple?

Look, that's really, really challenging and it's very, very common. So I think the number one advice, I would say, is get help. Understand what it is to parent a neurodivergent child.So do those parenting things that are around those specific challenges. But also I think kids are really adaptable, actually. So often the things that children do will.They will tolerate and accept very different parenting styles.

Particular.

Each parent doesn't criticise or belittle the parenting styles that are different. So it's a really interesting thing. So often it is, you know, when dad's at home, the kids will be fine. When mum's at home, the kids will be fine.But when mum and dad are Together, parenting at odds with each other. The kids will really struggle with that. So sometimes it's about, you know, having a division of labour. So dad always does the bedtime routine.Cause he's great at that. He's very consistent. Maybe he's got order and structure that happens there.But the mum does some of the daytime things or the after school things, or sometimes it is being able to break up the tasks that are needed or learn to trust each other in a way that says. When the other parent is saying, look, do you want me to step in here?That's not a criticism of the parent who's currently struggling to manage the kids. That's a, hey, I've got your back and I, I'm ready to help you. But that comes out of a, out of the work of trust in the relationship.So it is very challenging, isn't it? Because day to day it can really shift and change. There's not. It's never going to be perfect.So a little bit of, I think parenting and relationships, when there's neurodivergence in the mix, is hanging on, staying committed to each other and working towards whatever improvements that you can make in the space that's there. And sometimes that is, you know, being able to say, look, hey, I can feel myself getting dysregulated here.I'm going to need to step out of the situation and walk away. Can I ask you to jump on in? I think that's one of the biggest things that's helpful. Yeah.

Mari, what a beautiful picture that is of teamwork, of parents coming together, looking after the children, but looking after each other and being united, being concerned for the other, loving each other, expressing needs, looking out for the needs of the other.And I love what you said too at the start there about learning together and coming to grow in understanding together, so that maybe some, some of that understanding will help with some of those parenting decisions. Mari, you've talked a lot about seeking support in things like parenting in marriage.Can you tell us a little bit about how churches can be responding well when couples come to them either with parenting concerns or marriage concerns, when different neurotypes are in the mix there?

Yeah, I think that's a really challenging one that comes up a lot. Often people feel very judged and shamed, unfortunately, in churches, whether for their kids or in their marriage relationship.So I think there is a responsibility for church leadership particularly and other Christians to really understand the unique dynamics that come with neurodivergent families. I'm sure you've talked about this previously in the podcast as well.There is a recurring pattern that I've seen where neurotypical spouses, particularly, will come to leadership for help and support and end up going away feeling judged and criticized, being told to submit more or to try harder rather than being supported in a really effective and ongoing way.So I think, you know, having all of that support that is available, whether that's making meals for a family or, you know, paying for counseling for somebody to have that, that ongoing support, taking the shame and the stigma out of having unique challenges that come in this space, I think there is an opportunity for us to step up, isn't there, in Christian community, and do this better. So I think one of the things that I'd say is there's no shame in the struggle. The struggle is real. It isn't hopeless.There is always hope where God is concerned. Sometimes there aren't answers that we would like, but God is still faithful, even when the answers are, this is too hard.But I think we do need to support neurodivergent relationships so much more than we do currently.

Particularly, I guess, if someone has said, I need help or I'm struggling or that sort of thing, just even taking that step is a huge step, isn't it? And so that.Absolutely, that is such a wonderful indicator for the church to say, right, time to love, time to get loving and caring, not judging and saying, oh, you know, you're just doing it wrong, or anything like that, but saying, wow, you have seen an issue and you've asked for help, and we are here for you as God's chosen people, as the family of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and we're gonna do that in whatever way we can. Well, Mari, it's been so good to have you on the podcast. Such a blessing.Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for the work that you're doing in helping couples live as Christ has called them to be and to enjoy what Christ has called them to be.And I guess we want to say to couples who are neurotypical, neurodivergent, who are parenting neurodivergent kids, God's way is best and does lead to joy. There can be hardness and brokenness. But as you've said, Mari, along the way, God does bring change, and that is a wonderful source of hope.So thank you very much and Kate, thank you as always, and we'll speak again in our next episode.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Okay, bye.

If you are having struggles in your relationship, we really want to encourage you to reach out for help. God made marriage for our joy and for blessing. And sometimes it doesn't feel like that, but we all need help in everything.And so it's a wonderful thing to put your hand up and say, I really need help. We really need help. It'll be good for you, It'll be good for your children. And so don't leave things there.As Mari said, do some research to find a counsellor who understands neurodivergence and then seek them out. Out. Ask for that help and seek out that blessing because it is such a good thing to get help with your marriage.