16. Diving Deep: Answering Your Big Questions on Neurodivergence

Hi, I'm Dave Whittingham.

And I'm Kate Morris. And welcome to Neurodivergence Family and Faith.Today we're going to be looking at some of your big questions and having a bit of fun as we chat through them. Hi, Dave. It's good to see you.

Good to see you, Kate.

Dave, we have a whole bunch of questions. We're constantly being sent questions. And then I know that people keep approaching both of us as well with questions.Also, earlier in the year I was at a conference and we had a question answer time at the end and yeah, there wasn't enough time to answer the questions. So we have a long list here. Why don't we see what we can get through? And you and I haven't prepared answers to these.So we're also just going to have an initial conversation around some of these things and kind of just spat some of these ideas around. And yeah, we'd love to hear from you guys as well as you listen to this, what your thoughts are on these questions as well.And we might do this again sometime. So you can also send us more questions if you have them as well.

Absolutely. And we have more questions than we'll be able to deal with today, so look forward to doing it again.

Yeah, that's right. Dave, can I start with asking you a question from here?

Okay.

How helpful or not is it to speak of us all being diverse and all being on the spectrum?

Yeah. Language is a funny thing, isn't it? Because especially with language that's relatively new, everyone's using it in different ways. And so you might.Someone might hear one thing one way and someone else hears a completely different way. So the way we've approached it is we've talked about neurodiversity as being sort of covering everyone. But neurodivergent is different to.To, I guess a majority. I was going to say normal, but that's not appropriate, is it? But different to the majority.But I think I've been really helped by you, Kate, in thinking about language and that sort of thing, the spectrum language. It can be helpful in saying that everyone is different.And if that's all you mean, then that can be really helpful because actually you want to be able to focus on the individual in front of you and not just assume that the people in front of you, you know, if this one has a diagnosis of autism and that one has a diagnosis of autism, that they're exactly the same.

Yes, that's.

And so. And I think that's what the spectrum language is trying to. Is trying to grapple with.And yet if you start saying, well, every single person is on the spectrum, that sounds like you're saying every single person has some kind of autism or something. And that. And that's not true, is it?

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

There is a huge variety in autism, but it's. But it's not something that everyone has. I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, there's something good to this, isn't there, that it wants to affirm that we're all different. It's not that only some people are different.Everyone else is the same. We're all different. The human experience varies. It's acknowledging all of these things.We all have things that we struggle with and have challenges in our life.But I think it's really problematic to use because I think that saying we're all autistic or we're all on the spectrum or all neurodivergent says actually your experience isn't distinct. And it can deny people, supports and deny people the things that they're finding difficult.And so I think in the end, it's too problematic probably to use.But we can definitely affirm that idea that we've all got things that make us different to people around us because God's created variety in this world.

Yeah.One of the things that complicates it, I think, is partly the growing understanding over say, the last 30 or 40 years of what autism is and what it looks like.So I was saying I was watching a guy being interviewed on the TV number of years ago who was an autism expert, but he had no idea until much later that his son had autism. And, and they're sort of asking, you know, how did. How did that happen?And he said, well, we used to think autism was like this, and it was a really narrow focus of explanation, but now as our understanding has grown, it's actually much bigger. And so we need to fit more into that definition.And I think that growth is part of why people sort of throw up their hands and say, you know, we're all on the spectrum because it does look very different in different people. But it's still. But it still is a specific thing. And there are specific characteristics that autistic people have that non autistic people don't have.And if we, if we blur it, then that's going to lead to confusion.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

Okay, well, Kate, how about I ask you the next question? Okay.Do you have any advice on helping a neurodivergent, socially anxious person come to know Jesus when going to church with people they don't know is scary?

Ah, what a lovely question. We want everyone around us to know Jesus, don't we? And we certainly don't want barriers to be in the way for people to come to know Jesus.He's already done everything to remove the biggest barrier, sin, and he has come to us and brought salvation on offer for us. So, yeah, I love the. I love the heart of this question. I think it's lovely. And this. Yeah.Social anxiety is such a common factor for neurodivergent people. It can be crippling social anxiety. And I'm.I'm very thankful to God that church is a social activity because he gathers his people together where God's gathered, people celebrating God, coming together to mutually serve and support each other. And so that's a beautiful thing. But isn't that hard when that aspect can make it really challenging for someone to be able to be part of it?I think I love also the heart of this question, understands that we all belong in Jesus. People aren't excluded because they can't get to church. They're not excluded because they're different or because from here or from there.And there's nothing that excludes us if we accept the salvation on offer in Christ, which is wonderful. So how do we help someone who does have social anxiety to be able to get along to church? Social anxiety comes with numerous factors.One is social exhaustion from doing so many social aspects at once. So when you think about stepping into church for the first time, you've got the welcomers, you've then got the.Maybe the foyer of the church where there's more social stuff happening, it might be milling around, there's probably no social structure. You walk into church, you're possibly early, which means the music is playing. There's no social order there as well. More chaos.You sit down, but there's no labelled seats. You don't know who's going to sit around you, behind you, in front of you. And then things are happening and there's a social order there as well.You'll be standing, you'll be sitting, you'll be listening. You might be repeating at the same time. Children might leave at a time, people might come back at a time.There are a lot of social aspects where if it's new to you, you. It's chaotic. And when you think about it like that, the church service is so long.So if you can break down some of those aspects and introduce them a little bit at a time. So step one might be to invite someone to your house with this friend and that person would be from church and you get to know them.That's one other familiar face. You could perhaps do two.It depends on the person and what they can cope with, how many new people they want to meet in one time, just casual times together. And then it would be great if you can bring them to the church building at a time when there isn't social chaos, empty. Maybe you can go over there.You've got to drop stuff off anyway for morning tea or something on Sunday, see if they want to just come along and you can introduce them to the building and show them around and that sort of thing. Also going through the church service with them beforehand can help them know what's going to happen.Some like to get there early so that their spot is. Has been chosen by them and people can gather around them. Others might want to come quite late so that they can see where everyone already is.There's no kind of disorder of people moving and they'll be able to join in, sit in a place that works for them.And I think another aspect is it's great if you can be in the church service from the start to the finish, but that might be something that you work up towards. It might be that this person comes, you meet them out the front for the last five minutes and you go and you join in.They can hear the last song, be in the building, and then you head off and together you're having a cup of tea and reflecting on how that went. We don't have to do it all at once. And I think breaking that down can really, really help.And as you're doing that as well, it's showing this love of Jesus. You're not saved by coming to church. You're not trying to get this person in church, so they're saved.You're trying to share Jesus with them and along the way make church doable. And how wonderful to hear from.I've heard from so many neurodivergent people who have social anxiety who've shared with me that church has become a place that's still exhausting, but also builds them up and there's real joy. Social anxiety doesn't mean fear of people. It means that certain things will be exhausting.That can still be that absolute love of people and that joy to be around people and that joy of serving others as well. And we don't want anyone to Be excluded from them. So, yeah, breaking it down, I think, is the short answer.

Okay, that's really helpful, Kate, for how to get people to church and how to help people move to church. But what about. Can I say the step before. But church can be an evangelistic tool and it should be.But if someone's neurodivergent, socially anxious, the question is asking, how do we help them get to know Jesus?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, I think that's really helpful, Dave. I see now that I've answered the kind of going to church part of that.I mean, yeah, this is the fun of thinking out loud about these questions because actually. Yeah, that's right. Getting to church is a really important thing, but actually getting to know Jesus for someone who's socially anxious. Yeah.Isn't it wonderful that Jesus has the solution to everything that we need?And so we can be confident that bringing Jesus to someone who has social anxiety, that's the solution that they need to this pain that they feel when they're operating. We need to make sure that we're being creative in how we're bringing Jesus to them.So if we're relying on church to be the place where they hear Jesus, if church is really hard to get to, we can't be relying on that, but nor should we be. I think Jesus is best shared in relationship. And no socially anxious person is. Is unable to have relationship.And so if you can be a friend to them in a way that works for them, having conversations in ways that work for them, then you'll be able to share Jesus and share your relationship with Jesus. Share how in Jesus you are saved and safe and adopted and have riches in heaven and what joyful things to share with anyone.And so I'd encourage conversations. Some people might prefer shorter conversations or conversations with parameters.They know that the coffee is not going to go for more than an hour and they might prefer to be in your home rather than in the middle of a shopping center or in a noisy cafe. You might need to adapt how you're having conversations, but you can be absolutely confident that Jesus is for them. And church can be down the line.

Absolutely. And I think, like, I think relationship is the key and central to that.But alongside that, I think there are lots and lots of tools out there to help people explore Jesus, I guess, in their own world, in a sense. So there are lots of books.So you know, the classic I think of is A Fresh Start by John Chapman, but there are heaps of books speaking to non Christians that they can read, but not everyone's a reader. There's a growing number of podcasts. I'm keen to do a podcast where I just retell a gospel, but I haven't done it yet.Specifically aimed at non Christians, but there are certainly podcasts out there that answer questions, and it can just be a tool for saying, hey, you know, you could listen to this and see what they have to say to it.So it's a way of bringing people in, other Christians into the conversation without necessarily having that socially awkward interaction, but as if they become Christian, God willing. Also being confident God's spirit works and God gathers his people, doesn't he?And so he will work in them as he wants to bring them to church, and you will be a part of that. But it's not the only strategy, and it's certainly not necessarily even the first strategy.

No, not at all.

Especially for a socially anxious person.

All right, Dave, I think this is a fun one. Which characters of the Bible are neurodivergent? I feel like with this, no one in the Bible has been diagnosed with a type of neurodivergence.So we're keeping that in mind, and we're taking our kind of modern understanding of neurodivergence and applying it back where it doesn't really belong to characters who. We don't have a whole lot of detail on any of them in particular. Yeah, but what do you reckon?

Yeah, it is a fun one. And I would. Yeah, I'd include that major caveat that actually there is no one who you can look in the Bible, I think, and specifically say, what.What are their neurotypes? Or even what are their psychological issues? Or what are their, you know, all sorts of things. You know, what can you say about their parenthood and.And things like that? There's just all these things that we. That we just don't know.But if we have a bit of fun with it, the first person that immediately comes to mind is the Apostle Paul. And he specifically comes to mind because there are. There are two.One in Romans and one in Ephesians where Paul starts a sentence where he's making a point and then suddenly he goes way off in a completely different direction because he thinks, oh, no, I can't explain that until I've said this. But it's not like he finishes a thought and then goes on to the next one. It's almost an ADHD thing of saying, oh, no, I've got to say this.No, I've got to say this. And he gets so excited, and I Think it's really interesting that God allowed that through. Not through, but like it actually is a good thing.Yeah, it does make it a little bit harder to read. But what it says is that God is actually working through a real person who's really trying to explain something.And you know, if he submitted that to someone and said, can you just read over this before I submit it to my lecturer or whatever they might have said, oh, you need to edit this or this or that. But there's something actually really nice and human and potentially adhd. I don't know in that.

Yeah, I mean, well, it could be adhd. It could also be. I see a lot of giftedness in that as well.Because he isn't thinking in a linear path where one thing equals another and they build together like that. He's actually got all these ideas interwoven together and he's able to hold the threads of all these.He can see the three dimensional idea as opposed to a two dimensional thing, but he's trying to represent it in a very two dimensional way. With writing you can only say one thing at a time. You can't, unfortunately.Sometimes I wish you could build upwards and have layers in the paper, but he couldn't do that. And so, yeah, like I see that brain that is so big that he can see how things are interwoven.And I think it's a beautiful thing for reading it, you say, yeah, I agree it's more complicated, but how wonderful that people can have a PhD on these little chunks and unpick these because there are such rich truths in the Bible and in these little tiny portions as well.

Yeah.And it means that when we read it, actually we can go back and read it and see something completely new and go back and go back that God's actually worked through. Yeah. It is an amazing mind that he has, isn't it? Yeah. The only other one I thought of and you know, you could slap me down for this.Is it Ezekiel who has to lie on his side for like a year? I was thinking that takes hyper focus, maybe that.

Oh my goodness, that takes. Yeah, that takes a lot, doesn't it? That's right. Like that, that endurance, that determination to do a thing. Yeah, for sure. I think, yes.With the giftedness thing, I think of Mark. The Gospel of Mark is beautifully written and the kind of parallels in that, the way that things are built I think is a beautiful read.I think that it takes a lot of intelligence to be able to write like that. Yeah. I think there are different characters.I think Too, maybe of David, you know, how he doesn't mind dancing and singing and showing that joy that he has. He has like a deep understanding of God and his justice and his faithfulness and that joy to know God.And he allows that to just come out in the way he moves and the way he operates. And I see that. And I think of people I know who are able to feel so deeply and express that with movement, which I think is pretty cool.

Yeah. I think as we talk, I'd still come back and say, you know, we can't diagnose any of these people and there's a danger if we. If we try to.But I think what we can say is there is such a diversity of characters in the Bible, and that's a really beautiful thing and a really wonderful thing to say. Actually. Look at the people who God uses. They're not just all these carbon copies that are coming off the profit machine or whatever it is.They're actually really all very different people. Gideon is so completely different to David and. Yeah, and that's a good thing. That's part of the world that God's made.

Yeah. How lovely.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, Kate, that was a bit of a fun one. Now I've got a very specific one.

Okay, how.

Okay, how does hsp, so highly sensitive people. How does HSP relate to definitions of neurodivergence?

Ah, okay. Yeah. So HSP is one that I'm not sure if we've mentioned along the way. So hsp. Yeah, highly sensitive person. This isn't a formal diagnosis.This is something that was created in the 1990s in order to explain something that the psychologist Elaine Aaron, she was seeing a little. A bit of a problem with diagnosis.So she was seeing that there were people who had real support needs and who really operated in the world differently, but they didn't fit into diagnoses of autism or ADHD in particular.And so what happens, are these people just supposed to go along without any further understanding, without being able to kind of group together and share tips and ideas and that sort of thing. So she came up with the idea of highly sensitive person.So it's people who process information differently, who have maybe strong emotional responses to things, people who are often deeply empathetic. They've got sensitivities to sounds and other sensations around them as well. And they also people who overstimulated more easily.So she's made this category to helpfully help people say, look, if you're operating like this, then here's a way for you to Begin to understand yourself and a way to begin to read about some things and meet others who feel the same in order to be able to feel less kind of different to everyone around you, in order to be able to see that this is a perfectly valid way of operating. Dave, you touched earlier on how the definition of things like autism, adhd, have changed over time. Autism in particular has changed rapidly.I mean, it used to be understood as schizophrenia, as a type of schizophrenia. And so we've come a long way. But, yeah, when Elaine Aaron was coming up with this name, autism was still very much only externalized traits.And so it was very often a boy. It was very often things like you could see the stemmings or maybe flapping or spinning or hitting heads on things.And it was often kind of diagnosed if there were major disruptions to the person's life or particularly the lives of people around them. And so the diagnoses were very external, which is one reason why it was a very narrow, stereotyped person.But over time, it came to be understood that, for example, that to take the stimming example, the stimming's on the outside because that person perhaps is overwhelmed and needs to regulate, and spinning helps regulate. But next to this boy, there might be a little girl or another little boy who is also feeling overwhelmed, but their stimming isn't externalized.They're inside their head saying something 50 times over, or maybe they're rubbing their hands together or chewing on their tongue or whatever it might be. Or maybe they bottle it in and go home and then absolutely melt down when they get home because it's been such a hard day for them.And so coming to understand, the brain's doing the same thing, but operating like we see it differently on the outside. So correctly, definitions have expanded to include more people. And that's a wonderful thing.And so the definition of hsp, a lot of people who were previously understanding themselves as HSP now can look at the definition of autism.And a lot of them, not all of them, will be able to see that maybe autism is a really good definition for them now that it's changed, particularly since 2013. So for some people, HSP is no longer the most accurate way of understanding themselves. And they're. They get further by looking into autism.Sometimes ADHD as well, is a helpful way to understand themselves.But certainly there are still people who don't fit these categories, but can see that they're operating differently and understand that they are going to need some supports and that sort of thing. So I think Also with HSP at the beginning anyway, and this is changing.There was a lot of focus on making you calm and sort of looking for ways to withdraw in order to build up. And now, like in the HSP discourse now, this is changing a little bit. But even still, it's.It's easy to come across material for people who are HSP that doesn't address the realities of the benefits of regulating. Kind of also acknowledging that sometimes being alert or passionate or energized, it's Isn't bad. That's not a. An ideal state.That can be ideal for some things. You might need to have regulation sort of surrounding some of that, but I think it can sometimes be a flat sort of look at how to regulate.That's not for everything. That's if you're looking at kind of the older material. So I think HSP is very helpful.HSP is, I would say, certainly a type of neurodivergence, and I think it serves a purpose for people. If you're someone who sees yourself as hsp, that can be really helpful and wonderful for you.I'd make sure that you've also just had a little look into the newer definitions and understandings of autism, adhd, just to make sure that you're finding a definition that's most helpful for you.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because definitions, they're both helpful and limited, aren't they?

Yeah, always. Yeah.

So.So they can be helpful for understanding something general where you can latch onto something and say, yes, that's me, and that that also is related to other people. And so I can learn from other people and learn from. From what's going on there. So I can.I can ask other autistic people, HSP people, ADHD people, gifted people. I can ask them, okay, how do you handle this and all those sort of things?

Yeah, great.

But they're limited in that one. They are changing as we understand more and that sort of thing. But they're also limited in that there is more to each person than those diagnoses.So I have autism and adhd, but I also have a family of origin. I also have experiences in my life that have led me to where I am now.I also have specific genetic things that are gonna, you know, affect me in different ways.And so sometimes we can get too focused in on a particular diagnosis, but diagnoses are there to help us and to serve us, but they shouldn't become a slave or a master of us when we're working to understand ourselves.

Yeah, that's right. Actually, Dave, this is leading into another question we have on the list about. About identity.Do you have any wisdom on how to know when people might be making neurodivergence an identity issue? Hmm. So it's coming to that identity stuff that you're starting to kind of touch on there.

Yeah, it's really important because as Christians, our identity is fundamentally in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is nothing more important than that.Even, you know, there's that weird passage where it says, you know, there's no more Scythian or slave or free or even man or woman.And I would think that if you go back to the creation and you look at humans made in God's image, the only other thing that's really mentioned about them is their manhood and womanhood. And that's really important, and it's really key to each individual. And yet it's subordinate to my identity in the Lord Jesus Christ.And so I have to think of every other thing that goes into me as being. I have to put it through that filter and subordinate it to that understanding, including any diagnosis that I have. If you're.I mean, what is identity? How do we use identity? We use identity to say to, I think, almost to lock us into a pattern of thinking.And that can be helpful and that can be unhelpful. I'm just thinking through this.I want to be shaping my actions in life not around the fact that I'm autistic, but around the fact that I am Christian, that diagnoses can be helpful in understanding the particular ways that I'm going to do that and I'm going to approach the world and both the strengths and limitations that I'm going to have in doing that.And I think, like I said before, they're a servant in that, but when they become a master for defining how I'm going to live my life, that's a problem.Because the definition of how I'm going to live my life has to be the fact that I am in Jesus Christ, I belong to the family of God, and that's gotta define me.

Yeah. What do you say? I think that's right. I think that's really helpful. I think that's right.A diagnosis is really useful, really helpful for a lot of people in understanding themselves and so on, as you said. But I think there is a push at the moment from some of the advocates that are out there to be saying not. They kind of push it further.So not just saying, look, if you need the lights to be dimmer, that's okay. If you need to wear earmuffs, that's okay. They push it further to say, and if you want to live this particular way, you should be allowed to.And if you want to say that particular thing, you should be allowed to, because it's coming from within. It's this understanding that kind of the self is pure and what you want should be the dictator of what you do.Rather than, for Christians, we look to God, don't we?And so I think that can cause complications because then people can say, well, I can do this because I'm neurodivergent, or you have to support me doing that because I'm neurodivergent. But having said that, that's a human thing as well, isn't it?This isn't just neurodivergent advocates, because people say, don't they, oh, no, I'm a woman, so I can. I'm a doctor, so I can. No, I'm busy, so I can. But I am in love, so I can.And so we can easily say, but this is coming from within, or it's a situation that I'm in, therefore it's okay. Without remembering that we have a wayward heart.

Yeah. And I think that's what's so distinctive about our Christian identity. Because what's the most fundamental thing to that identity of being in Jesus?It's love.So love is how, when, you know, John says, well, Jesus says in the Gospel of John, I can't remember the exact words, but basically, when people see how you are loving one another, then you'll know that you're my disciples, because that's what God does.

John 13.

Yeah, yeah. And it's so different to all those other identities because if I'm defined by the love of the Lord Jesus Christ, then I won't say.I won't put myself at the center and say, everyone else has to change around me because I have a particular sensitivity or anything. And it'll say, well, yes, I have this. And it's loving for me to express that and help people to know how to love me.But at the same time, there are things where I'm going to put my concerns, issues, whatever, aside for the sake of you, because I want to love and care for you. And so it's such a more wonderful identity than any other identity.

Yeah, it really is.I guess with all this, there does come a danger as well where people can say to people who have support needs, no, you shouldn't want that support need, because actually you should be serving Everyone around you. And if you're asking to wear your earmuffs, people might feel like you're not wanting to listen to them.If you're asking for the lights to be a little bit dimmer, you're not self sacrificing for the sake of others. And your identity is in Christ. And so there can actually come a point where everyone else around them is making it an identity issue.When actually we just, we operate in bodies, in a world that can really hurt, in a world that can be hard. And we work to support each other because we're in Christ. And that doesn't, that's not prescriptive, that's descriptive.It's not saying, therefore you will always operate in this one way. It's saying, therefore you will always be loving as Christ loved.And that's going to look different to different people because of their different capacities, because of the different ways they operate in the environment. And so we need to make sure that we're not making it something that's complicated as well.Like, no, don't wear your earmasks because you're making it an identity issue might actually be a complete misunderstanding of what that person is trying to do.

Totally. And I think again, that comes back to the love issue of actually what sort of love does God have?It's not the world's love because the world often can only think in one direction. So either I'm loving you or you're loving me. But the Bible's picture of love is very circular.So the Father loves the son, the son loves the father, not to the exclusion of each other, but as a mutual, constant love.And so that's why love is best expressed in community, where we can work out, you know, there's gonna be times where I give up this or where you give up that for me. There are times where we're kind of both doing it together.And it's a, it's a complicated thing, but actually the beauty is in the complication and we want to enjoy that and express that together.

I think that's right.

Well, we probably should wrap it up there. So lots of great things to talk about and there'll be a lot more to come next week. Where. What are we looking at next week, Kate?

Oh, well, next week we are going to be looking at the idea of being limited and particularly thinking through what does that mean when we have limitations that might look different to others? What does it mean for the things that we're putting down, who picks them up? What does it mean if they're not picked up.And how do we understand dependence on God and God's dependability through all of that?

Excellent. So, yeah, we're really looking forward to that. If you're enjoying the podcast, please don't forget to like us. Subscribe, leave a review.We'd love to see some more reviews. Just to help people click on that first episode and say, oh, yeah, that's. That sounds like it's going to be a really good thing, so please do that.You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and otherwise, keep trusting Jesus and we'll see you again soon.

See you later. Excellent. Okay, it suddenly said, your Mac's gonna go to sleep. Yeah, don't do that.

Okay, well, my PC didn't say that.