4. Attention, Social Experience and Predictability

Hi, I'm Kate Morris.

And I'm Dave Whittingham.

And this week we're looking at more aspects of life that can be stressful or can be rejuvenating.

G' day everyone. Welcome back to Neurodivergence, Family and Faith. This is episode four. How exciting. We're really getting into it now.And of course I have Kate Morris with me. Kate. Hi. How are you?

I'm tired, actually. I'm really tired. It's. I was gonna say it's been a big week, but I think it's been a big, a big few weeks, a big month, maybe a big year.

Yeah.

How about you, Dave?

Yeah, I'm really tired as well. But I mean, life is like that, isn't it? Yeah, just, you know, you get to the end of some weeks and you just go, man, what's going on?This is so tiring. But actually, you know, we keep pressing on and we support each other and look after each other and we take those next steps.So thank you so much, Kate, for coming along. It's great to be together and to be talking about really good things.Last week we looked at sensory processing differences and how we can understand and help our children manage what's going on with their sensory input. Sometimes we saw how sensory processing can be really, it can be really stress inducing, but other times it can be really helpful.It can give back energy, it can give back spoons, and that could be a really good thing. And so we just need to be watching that and working out what's helpful for our children. What are we going to be doing this week, Kate?

Yeah, well, actually much the same, the same sort of idea. But last week we looked at sensory aspects. This week we're going to be looking at some other aspects of life.So we're going to be looking at attention differences, we're going to be looking at different experiences of the social environment and we're also going to be looking at predictability.And for each of these, just like for the senses, for each of these there are going to be aspects that can be giving energy, that can be rejuvenating, that could be regulating, but each one can also have aspects that can be extremely draining, it can be triggering and it can be an anxiety producing as well.And I think the reason why it's so helpful for us to be thinking through these as parents of neurodivergent children is because as we think this through and come to understand our children better, hopefully we'll be able to help them work out what strategies of support they need so that we can be working collaboratively with them.We can be curious about what they need, whether that's through chatting with them or working with them, or observing them and making conclusions about what supports they need in this environment, that can be both difficult and helpful.

Yeah. As we work through those strategies, we're going to be planning them in a way that's different to the world's approach, aren't we?I mean, Jesus has this wonderful, wonderful saying where he says in John 13, a new command. I give you love one another as I have loved you, so you must love one another by this.Everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. Now, this passage isn't about parenting as such. It's about Christians, loving Christians.But certainly if you want to have a Christian home, if you want to have a Christian family, then the sort of love that Jesus is talking about is exactly what we want to see in our homes. And it's certainly what we want to see in churches. It's the essence of how we relate. It's so different to the world's love, Christ's love.Jesus tells us to love as he's loved us. And it's not the thing where you go, yeah, I really love my children because you saw them in a cute photo or anything like that.It's that love of, I am going to sacrifice myself and my wants and desires for you because I want what's best for you. And we do see that in the world in families to some degree.But I think what we've got to be really careful of is the other type of love that we see out in the world, but also in our own hearts. And that is a love of self.And we see that in our families, and we can even see it in church where we want to impose on our children something that we think is good. So we've fixed it in our mind as this is a really good thing, but it's actually not a good thing for them.And so we're trying to twist and conform them into living the way that we want them to, being in church in a particular way that we want them to, going to the shops in the way that we want them to, and that is not the love that Jesus is talking about.

Yeah, I think that's right, isn't it?And I guess Jesus, I mean, obviously he knows our hearts and he knows that that's the way we're inclined, which is why he's been really clear about it. He absolutely doesn't say a New commandment I give you that you love one another as the world loves each other or as the world loves themselves.He's got this here because he knows we need that reminder that prompt to have this privilege to love as he has loved. Yeah. And as you say, like it's, it's a sacrificial, other person centered love. It's quite different to the rest of the world.And I guess it's as we are loving in that different way. That's why people will say that we're his disciples, because it is different.If it's looking exactly the same as everyone else, no one's gonna see that we're his disciples. But loving this way, isn't it cool that it's also evangelistic?It's also showing something of who Jesus is and his love for me as I'm other person centered. Hopefully I'm showing people that Jesus other person centeredness means that I am loved by Him.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we're only going to do it if we love God first.I mean, the greatest commandment, love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And then the second commandment is about loving other people.So when we love God first, we'll certainly want for our children to know him and his love as our priority for them. And also we want them to grow into his image and to be like Him.So our goals for our children will not be fixed around university or a type of career. Our goals for them will not be having a certain number of friends or anything like that.Our big goals for them are going to be, are you learning to love like Christ loves? Are you considering how to use kind words and what that looks like for you and that sort of thing.So reframing all these things that you know, when you start out as a parent, you don't even know that you've got them often.

Yeah, it's true.

But these desires that you have for your child, reframing them around this love for God and this love for the Lord Jesus, and then through that, learning to love us, learning to love our children, and by that, teaching them how to love other people.

Yeah.Isn't it great that as we're loving them in this way, we're also teaching them the best truth in all the world, that they're loved by Jesus, that we are evangelizing to them.I think that's really cool and I think that's a great place to start because we're going to be thinking through some differences that our children might have. And as we're doing this, we can be working out as well how to be loving them in the bodies they have.Working out how to love them as Jesus has loved us, as Jesus loves them and help them to be loving others as Jesus loves them. So I think that's really, that's great. And the first aspect we're going to be looking at is attention differences.And so this is quite common in many neurodivergent people, adults, children.It can be that their mind is skipping between all sorts of sensory stimuli, all sorts of thoughts, but it can also be that their brain wants to be constantly thinking through one thought.So it's, it's that attention difference, lots and lots of things or so much one thing that they're blocking out other things and, and putting all of that under the category of attention differences. A woman with ADHD helped me understand what it's like for her. So she compares it to her dog. And as you know, I'm a dog person.My dog is sleeping right there. She compares her attention to a bit like a puppy. She says this. My mind feels a bit like an untrained dog on its first walk.I'm constantly fighting to reel it in, keep it on the path, but it's chaotically darting from the shopping list to my new business idea to the cute baby chatting at the back. I mean, how draining if she wants to be forcing focus when her mind is doing that.

Totally. As a 46 year old man myself, it's kind of frustrating that I'm still a puppy and my brain still wants to do that.I don't know how old this woman is, but you know, as I hear that quote, you know, it makes sense to me and I want it to slow down and I want it to be able to, you know, be the, be the mature brain that, that goes on, but it's just a struggle that we need to work through.

I, yeah, actually it's interesting that you've compared it to like a, I mean she's used the word puppy as well, or untrained dog she says, versus a mature brain. It's actually, this is actually probably going to be something that your brain is wanting to do for all of your life, Dave.And you know, as you said, you're 46, so your, your brain is actually mature and this is part of doing. It's not an immaturity, it's a difference, I would say. What do you think?

No, that, that's helpful. I was, I was bouncing off the puppy idea there. I know obviously I'm very mature.

Kate I'll ask you why.

Yeah, yeah, no, don't ask her. No, moving on.

There's another side, another side to attention as well, and that is focus. So we've talked about the brain skipping around like an untrained dog.But also for some, the brain can end up achieving a hyper focus or a deep focus. And this is one of those aspects of attention that can really be rejuvenating and be giving energy.So a teenager told me about what it's like for her A U D H D which means autism plus adhd. And she described her attention when she's hyper focused as being like tendrils snaking into her work.And she told me that it feels wonderful, but so there's the rejuvenation. So it feels really good to be in that time.Perhaps if she's got a long period of time to actually enjoy that hyper focus, perhaps that's going to be quite rejuvenating, quite relaxing for her. It feels wonderful, she says.But there's another side to this as well, and that is, she says that if someone suddenly demands her attention, it's like the tendrils have been snapped. And so she was telling me that this actually gives her pain. It feels uncomfortable and tingly. She said it hurts and it's hard to grow them again.And so it's important to remember that for a lot of these things that our kids will experience, there's the side that perhaps will be rejuvenating to them and the side that can actually be quite draining. You know, her parents need to understand that for her, if they come over and say her name all of a sudden that's going to be quite difficult for her.Suddenly she's lost that attention. Suddenly she's being asked to snap those tendrils and then it's difficult again to achieve relaxation from that window of time that she's gone.

Yeah, because there's a, there's a freedom in being able to hyper focus and saying, I can sit in this and enjoy the topic or whatever it is and enjoy going down every avenue because that's what my brain often wants to do. But now I've got the time and energy to do it.I mean, it's not always possible, but if we, with our kids, if we do need to get them moving or whatever it is, giving just some time warning for that so that their brain at least has some opportunity to wrap up that thinking or at least get to a point where you say, okay, yes, I can stop. That can be a really helpful thing.

I Think that's exactly right. Yeah, really helpful. And how great to understand that because I'm sure no one wants to cause their child pain. But you're right.Like, there are times that we have to stop the attention, but we can do it in a way where we're understanding what it means to have hyper focus and what it means, the difference between snapping that attention suddenly versus taking time, doing it slowly, and seeing it as a process of changing attention.

I was just thinking about, there's another aspect about the hyper focus, and that is for people with adhd, so often they can't complete things or they struggle to complete things because they're always getting distracted and the brain is always never going in a straight line.But if they've locked into a hyper focus time period to bring that to a close, suddenly they've achieved something and probably achieved something in a really full kind of way. And that's. That's valuable for the rarity.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's really exciting to be able to say. Yeah, I really got to lock in on that.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Isn't it great?Understanding these different aspects of these things is not as easy as just saying this is bad or this is hard. But there are different shades of what's going on. And social experiences is another thing in this. So we've looked at attention differences.Social experiences is another one. So of course, for some kids, they go somewhere with lots of kids, lots of adults around, and they're fed by that.They go home feeling wonderful because they've just gotten to be around lots of people. And that's wonderful. But for others, for a lot of neurodivergent kids, actually, social experiences can be quite draining.Even if they find them wonderful, even if they're the life of the party in these times, they can still go home and absolutely fall apart or be exhausted or feel drained or need to regulate. Some people will experience social anxiety and it can cause quite a lot of distress for them physically and mentally.A person can, as I said, like, look happy on the surface, but underneath it can be bubbling away. And an ADHD woman, so autism plus adhd, she wanted to tell me what that's like for her, and she says this.No one knows just how hard I'm working to maintain the performance I need to put on in order to socialize at church. It's scary, it's draining, but I can put on a convincing show so no one realizes how much I'm struggling.And it's interesting, her struggles are Hidden. She probably looks so friendly and calm on the outside, but this is happening underneath.

Yeah, it's that classic description of the swan swimming on the lake, isn't it? You know, they're so. They look so beautiful up the top, but underneath their legs are just flying as hard as they can.You know, obviously the legs aren't flying, but they're working really hard underneath.And, you know, that's an experience you can see for children so that they can be at school as well or at church for a long time and be wearing that mask and they look fine. But then when they get home, they fall apart and we can think, my child's having a tantrum or something like that. Why are they doing this?But actually it's just an indicator of how hard they've been working all that time while they've been out. And being able to recognize that and name it for what it is is so important for caring for our kids.

It really is, isn't it? Absolutely. Helping them name it for themselves. That's great.And I think when we do understand this, it means that we say things, I think, in a broader picture. So being at church, for someone who feels like this woman does, she needs to see church not just as from say, 10am to midday.She needs to see it as being something she prepares for all morning.So she's going to be needing to gain energy in the morning, gain those spoons, as we talked about in that other episode, gain that energy so that she can go there and know that it's going to really cost her a lot of spoons to be there, but so she can be there.And for her to know that she's cleared some time in the afternoon, for her to replenish some energy so that she can be there and really expend all those spoons, it doesn't mean she can't go to church because it's so draining, but it does mean that she needs to care for herself in a way that maybe others don't need to. And so I think it's important for families to know this. It's important and hard, I think too, actually, because it impacts the whole family.If someone in the family or people in the family find church this draining, it can mean that the family doesn't necessarily kind of sail from church to lunches every single week, because that's going to be really hard for someone in the family who experiences social anxiety.So actually knowing that this reshapes how the family serves and how the family interacts with people as well, knowing that there might need to first be a break and then a time socializing with others, or that there'll even be weeks where the socializing can't happen because we need to be at church in the morning or in the evening or whenever it is.I think this is also perhaps where community can really be helpful because if you know a family or if you have a friend you can lean on, then it can mean that you can say to someone, this child isn't going to be able to go out that afternoon. Would you mind if they come and sit in your lounge room while we go out and enjoy lunch with others?Knowing that sitting in someone else's lounge room is also draining, but working out how many spoons will they have?And how can we as a family adjust and operate, not just squishing this person week after week to match what the neurotypical people can do in the family or match what people who are fed by social experiences can do? Remembering to love as Jesus loves in a way that adapts to what their needs are.So with social anxiety, it can be often something that triggers all sorts of deep down feelings, feelings that can be quite internal. And remember how we talked about interoception last week when we're talking about the different senses?So interoception is the understanding of what's going on inside your body. And it's not uncommon for neurodivergent people to find it harder to understand exactly what is going on in their body to read those signals.It's not for everyone, but for some, that's really quite complicated.And the woman I just quoted who finds socializing at church draining and so on, she told me about what goes on in her body and I think this is really helpful. She said, I'm very poor at reading my own body and recognizing internal cues, meaning I find it hard to know when I'm tired or reaching capacity.I sometimes don't notice the effect it's having on my nervous system until it's too late and I crash or have a meltdown. I don't often recognise the warning signs that I'm approaching overload. So I keep pushing.The crash then comes seemingly out of nowhere, leaving my family to pick up the pieces.

That's so hard. Yeah. And I mean, what we don't want to have to do is get to a point where we need to pick up the pieces.I mean, certainly if we get to that point, that's loving and kind and caring. But there's a great privilege in helping our kids understand things so that we don't. So that they don't have to get to that point.

Yeah, that's right. Yep. And being willing to allow them to acknowledge that their body is doing this or for us to recognize for them. I noticed that you're shaking.That often happens when you're feeling stressed. Would you like a rest?

But even being aware of these things. Because the shaking one is an obvious outside one, isn't it? But asking the questions.And sometimes the questions need to come after an event where it hasn't gone well. But just saying, okay, what were you feeling in your tummy? As that was starting to.So as I was talking just before everything went south, what was going on in your tummy? What was going on in your head? Did you have any funny feelings there or anything like that?And so just starting to name different parts of the body and helping them to ask the question. Because you'll never see that as a parent. You can't see inside their body. But it's a good conversation to have.

It is. And around that. It can be really useful.And also just being conscious that it can also be frustrating because a lot of neurodivergent kids will have what's called alexithymia, which is a complication with naming emotions. And I think personally it comes from this amazing ability to understand that sad isn't ever just sad.It's sad mixed with excitement, mixed with fear, mixed with. So how do you label that? It can be a communication problem. It can be an interoception problem.Understanding that sometimes these things can be really hard to communicate and allowing them to just say, I don't know what I felt. But sometimes allowing them to communicate in a different way. If what your brain was feeling in those moments was a dinosaur, what type of dinosaur?Or pterodactyl, because I felt so happy. And pterodactyls fly by the same token.Another kid might say a pterodactyl because it's able to swoop in and destroy all the fish and allowing them to explain around why they've chosen that for some, that works. For others, that's even more stressful. But again, it's the curiosity. It's the willing to adapt. It's wanting to understand our kids.And so social experiences, attention differences are able to give things that can be rejuvenating or draining or stressful or give panic or fear in the same way. Predictability. So why don't we have a look at what predictability can be for kids as well.A lot of people will find a Lot of neurodivergent people will find a lot of comfort in predictability.So you can actually feed them, like, be giving energy, be giving comfort, be giving that sense of safety by giving predictability in things like schedules or church outlines or photos of where you're going. These sorts of things can really help. An autistic girl told me about weekends, and she says this.She says, I don't like weekends because I don't know what will happen. Each day I wake up feeling worried, and then I worry because I'm worried. I like school because I know what will happen each day.That's great, isn't it? And so for her, it's draining to not have a schedule, but she likes school because it does have a schedule.

It's so weird because I just live for the weekend. Like, I can't wait for the weekend when I can just drop everything. But she's saying this school structure is just awesome and it helps me so much.

Yeah. And for some kids, they love to have a structure for the weekend, knowing what's going to happen. And so then they can tick things off in their mind.I think it can help for all sorts of things. Daily routines, unusual days, holidays. And it can serve in a couple of ways.One is to say, look, there aren't as many bad things in this day happening as you think there might be. But it can also things that are complicated. A lot of kids don't like bath or shower time.They can see on the schedule that it's this limited amount of time. They can see it definitely is going to happen, but they can also see there's an end point.And for some kids, actually seeing that there's an end point can really help.And around that too, we can put in something rejuvenating beforehand, something rejuvenating afterwards so that they don't have to fear that this is going to be the thing that absolutely drains the last of their energy. And then they're done for the day. They can understand that they're going to be able to get that energy back.And if we remember back a couple of weeks, we saw that when energy is completely drained, it can be hard to rest. Even if you've then got time to just rest, it can be really hard to access that if you've completely drained your energy.So for a kid to say on the schedule, I'm going to do something like trampoline, I'm going to enjoy that vestibular stimulation we talked about, that balance, that calming sense of jumping or moving, then I'm going to hop in the bath, I'll have a shower and I'll have enough energy for that. And then afterwards I'm going to do something rejuvenating before I plunk on the couch.I'm going to actually make sure I've got some energy back so I can enjoy that relaxation time. These things can give such a sense of comfort and safety.

Absolutely.I think because I do casual teaching occasionally I go into lots of classes and one of the things I think a lot of teachers are doing is just putting the day plan up on the board so that the moment the kids come in there, they know how things are going to be.And even if there's something different in the day to what it normally is, if that's, you know, we've got a special assembly after lunch or something like that, it's already there on the board when they come in in the morning. And so they can get their brain into gear to realize that is a change. And I'm working towards that.And that can work in kids church as well, can't it?Kids, church leaders or Sunday school or whatever you call it, Just having a really clear structure of what you're going to be doing for the morning or the afternoon or whenever it is. And that can help those kids to say, okay, I know we're going to be doing this, I know we're going to be doing that.And then I know I'm going back to mum or dad.

Yeah, yeah, that's right, yep. And then the days where something isn't on there, they know that it's safe, it's not going to suddenly be put in there.If there's something they dread or something they don't like, they know that it's not going to suddenly get slotted in because they've seen the visual thing. It can be helpful if leaders actually email that out to parents as well, depending on the child.For some parents that can help before they get there, or knowing that if you've had a leader change and someone else is stepping in just to be able to text the parents who know who you know would benefit from knowing that just so they can prepare their child for that. In all of this about schedules, it's just worth saying as well, parents of kids who have pathological demand avoidance, that's pda.This can be really complicated because this is a deep anxiety around demands and we can get more into this in future weeks. But I just want to acknowledge that for the parents out there who are listening with a PDF, schedules can be really helpful.This can give them structure and safety, but you'll need to be building in choices as well. Or it's. Each item on the schedule can come across as a demand, and you don't want to increase that anxiety, that fear.And so it comes down to wanting to work out with your child collaboratively what will work for them and also keep on reassessing as we go along. That wasn't enough choice. That was too much choice. I gave you too many options. I didn't give you enough options. This thing is so stressful.We need more time for it. And over time, hopefully you can keep on working out something that works for your child.

Just. Just want to do a bit of summing up of where we've been both over the last episode and in this one.So we've talked about sensory processing, attention differences, social experiences, predictability. So lots of different areas there. But in all those areas, I guess we're asking three key questions, aren't we?We're saying, okay, where can we help eliminate unnecessary triggers? So the things that we just don't need, where can we get rid of them so that they're just not a problem anymore?How can we help mitigate triggers when they can't be removed?So that might be putting earplugs in to reduce the sound, wearing a hat or sunnies inside if it's really bright in a shopping mall or something like that, what can we do to mitigate that? And then how can we use positive aspects to give energy to handle those difficult things that are going on?And in all of those, it comes back to the curiosity of finding out what works for your child. What do I really need to eliminate? What do I need to mitigate? And what are the things that are gonna give energy?

Yeah, that's right.Working out what's draining, what's replenishing, working out who your child is and how to be adapting that environment for them in a loving way, showing Jesus love to them as we're doing that.

Okay, what are we doing next week, Kate?

Yeah, so next week we're going to be having a closer look at what happens in the brain when our children or we experience a huge amount of stress. So we're going to be exploring the amygdala, which is part of the brain that kind of triggers our responses.And this matters because neurodivergent children aren't just tired from all these triggers, but they can actually have a nervous system that's responding with fight, flight, freeze.

Before we go, just want to let everyone know that if you're on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, any of those platforms, we have pages and accounts set up on all of them. So you can join our Facebook page.They've all got the name of the podcast, Neurodivergence, Family and Faith, and look them up, join our Facebook group, join those other things, and we'll put helpful things up there occasionally. And otherwise. I'll see you next week, Kate.

See you then. Bye.

Bye.

Possum snoring I can't believe it. Okay, tell me if it gets too loud.

She's a friend of the show. She gets cert rights.

Yeah, I guess that's right.

If I start snoring, that's going to be a problem. Problem.

Okay, well, remember that. I know you're tired. Just don't fall asleep. Okay? What I was going to say.