18. Unlocking Understanding: Joel Moroney on Neurodivergence and Faith

Hi, I'm Kate Morris.

And I'm Dave Whittingham.

Welcome to Neurodivergence, Family and Faith. Today we have a special guest. It's Joel Moraney.Joel is a Christian man who has over 20 years of ministry experience and is currently working for Jesus Club, which is a Christian group for adults with intellectual disabilities. And Joel is also an advocate for Christian neurodivergent people and is himself a neurodivergent man. So welcome, Joel.

Thanks for having me, Kate.

Can we kick off by just asking you, can you tell us a little bit about Jesus Club, what it is?

I would love to.

Thank you.

So Jesus Club is an organization that helps churches do ministry with adults with an intellectual disability. So I like to pitch it as kind of like youth group. We will offer a model of how you could run a group for these adults.You can take the bit you like, you can alter it to fit your context, but the ultimate aim is to reach one of the most unreached people groups on the planet, which is adults with an intellectual disability.

Oh, Joel, thank you. That is such a wonderful, wonderful ministry and genuinely says everyone is valuable and everyone can know the Lord Jesus Christ.So thank you so much for being involved in that. I should say. Hi, everyone. Dave here. So good.

Hi, Dave.

Good to be back with everyone. Hi, Joel. Joel, you've joined the very elite and prestigious club of being diagnosed as an adult.

That is correct, yes.

So would you mind telling us what your diagnosis is and what did you see in yourself that made you think a diagnosis might fit?

Yeah, so I've been diagnosed as autistic and adhd. So ADHD for about four or five years and autistic last year. As many adults with a late diagnosis, it came through my kids.So when my kids were diagnosed, we started looking at the genetic markers, we started looking at the patterns and going, yeah, maybe I fit into that category as well. I often fought against a diagnosis because I didn't feel like I was. Either I wasn't extreme enough or I didn't feel like I fitted the categories.The more that I became to understand what the characteristics were and what being autistic and ADHD met, the more I was comfortable going, actually, that is me, and explains a lot about me.

How did you feel in that?So it sounds like you went through a real journey, not just of, I guess, the factual things of yes or no, but also an emotional journey of how you were going to understand yourself. So, yeah. How did you feel when you finally did, I guess, accept that?

So the initial Response when I got the diagnosis was relief. It was going, okay, now it makes sense. I'm not weird. I'm not strange. There are lots of people whose brain works exactly like mine.I'm not the outlier. So therefore, I can now learn how to operate and see the world through a different lens. So the diagnosis gave me a lens that I was missing.

And, Joel, what difference did that lens make to kind of your. Your understanding? So what practically changed once you had that change of lens?

Yeah. So the biggest thing, I think, and this is a very Christian thing, is forgiveness.So I was able to look at the things I was doing and forgive myself when I wasn't able to do the things that I thought I should be able to do, or when I responded in a way that wasn't helpful, how everyone else responded, I go, no, that's my brain, and my brain is different and special. Forgiveness is what's needed here. And it enabled me to say that to people going, I'm sorry, this is my autistic brain working here.Work with me as we push through this.And I didn't feel bad about not being able to do something or doing something that was strange because now I had an explanation for it, and I could get people to walk alongside me and say, yep, let's learn together.

I've. I've heard similar things from so many adults, and also things like, have you learned strategies and stuff like that as well in order to help you?Things that maybe felt insurmountable. Yeah. Talk through some of that too.

Yeah.

Because many of the challenges I faced, I didn't even realize were challenges.I didn't realize that there were things that were draining my energy, things that were actually hurting me, because they're not things that neurotypicals find difficult.But once I had that lens, I could see, oh, no, if I change that one thing, I'll have a lot more energy or I won't melt down, because I can identify these things happening around me.So I'd always realized, for instance, that I was sensitive to light and sound, but I didn't realize that that was something that I could adjust and change. So when I was able to take control of the environment around me, that made a huge difference to my energy.When I realized that, hey, people, time is very exhausting for me. If I can regulate that and choose when to do it, then I will be alive for the rest of the day.So it's knowing about what things take more energy for me and therefore working around that which enables me to use my neurodiverse gifts more openly. So I can identify the places where my brain can do things that others can't and I can lean into that and other people can benefit from it.It's not just about everything needs to change so I can survive. It's let me do more things that will help everybody and grow us all together.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it sounds like there have been some really good things that have come out of that, Jo.A lot of people, I guess, push against the idea of diagnosis. And it sounds like even in your past, before the diagnosis, there was something in that of you.So some people would say that a diagnosis is actually detrimental.So they get concerned that if their child is diagnosed, they're worried that it'll mean the child will stop trying hard or in life or in school, or that people will lower their expectations of them so they'll make assumptions about the child that may be completely untrue, but then hinder the child. How would you respond to people who are feeling that?

So I've always been big on truth. I want to know what is true and what isn't. And that applies even more so to myself. I want to know who I am.I. I want to know everything I can about myself so that I can be the best me that God has made me to be. So a diagnosis actually helps me understand, okay, this is what's happening.Other people have identified things and seen patterns, and I fit into those patterns. So let's lean into the good, let's address the bad and be the best me. And a diagnosis is just a tool in that process.And for my kids, my kids are diagnosed also. My oldest two have been diagnosed with autism and adhd.My youngest, we're certain he's adhd, but we're waiting until he has trouble before we're getting diagnosed.For them to know who they are and know why they struggle enables them to try harder when they need to, enables them to forgive themselves when they do struggle. And it helps them every day to. To live a better life just knowing why things are hard.

Okay, so can just as a follow up to that, then would you.Then would there be times where you would hide that diagnosis from, say, a school or a church or from other people, or do you want to tell other people about that as well? What do you think?

So we have made a choice not to hide our diagnoses, but to celebrate them, to. To make. Be very open with them. We want people to know why we struggle. We want people to know why we're really good at something.And that if we're really good at something and then we aren't as good as something else, that's not a sign that we're being lazy. It's just that that is harder.We want people to around us, to have the tools to care for us and to embrace us and to help us grow, and then we can help others grow.And the other thing, as someone with a late diagnosis who is very confident in themselves and confident like, I have no fear that people finding out about my autism is going to detrimentally affect my career or my situation. I am able to be very open so that others can see, okay, that's autism. That's. He's a fully functional adult.And with autism, okay, maybe autism's different to what I thought.Or for somebody, especially with kids who are experiencing all those emotions about being neurodiverse, they see an adult up the front at a conference speaking about Jesus. He's articulate, he's confident, and he's wearing earplugs because it's too loud.They go, okay, I can now see a future where I am embraced and I can be me. I don't have to hide who I am, and I don't have to go hide in a corner somewhere. I. There's no limits to what I can do for God.

That's so encouraging.And, and for those kids who can see themselves in you, it's probably partly because they've also had a diagnosis that they know to look for someone like you. And so it can, it can also serve kids. It doesn't mean diagnosis is, is a have to, but it. There are certainly aspects that are beneficial.I recently wrote an article. You can find it on my substack at an extraordinary normal.substack.com or you can search for Kate Morris, neurodivergence, an article on diagnosis.So I've pulled together some different things people have told me and a few things that I've seen in the research. And just if you're a parent or a person who's considering all of this and you want to take a little dive, that might be a useful resource.And Joel, you've just helped us have a little insight into some ways that this diagnosis has been helpful for you and helpful for those around you. We've heard from a lot of people about the difficulties of church for some people.And in this podcast, we've looked at some of the reasons why church can be difficult for some people and the importance of listening because every person's different. But could you tell us a little Bit about your experience, experience of church. What are some things that bring you joy at church? Some challenges?Yeah, just some things that you've noticed at church.

So my experience at church is going to be unique in that before being diagnosed, I was a member of staff at my church.So I would need to mask every Sunday, every time we're there, to put on the face of somebody who knew what they were doing, was ready to love and to help was. Was the picture of a minister.But when I stepped down from my role, but stayed at my church because I love my church so much, I then was putting a conscious effort into dropping the mask and to just trying to be myself at church. And that was difficult at first, both for me and for my friends at church around me, there were questions going, does Joel actually want to be here?He seems so disconnected. But for me, it was going, I need to learn how to listen to a sermon. I need to learn how to.I can't remember prior to me stepping down the last time I actually sat in a church service for more than 10 minutes before going off and doing something, because I'd always have to be up and moving and fixing a sound system or teaching something or so to actually be present, I had to learn how to do that.For me, that looks like sitting at the back on the lounge at church with a coloring book with earplugs in and not necessarily standing up and singing with everyone else, but just being there and being engaged, talking to the people around me when they come in, and just trying to be relaxed at church. And it's been over a year now, and that's now the new normal that people just go, yep, that's what Joel does.And sometimes Joel won't be at morning tea because he's had an emotionally draining morning and he's just gone straight home or just shop. I'll talk to one or two people and then go find where my kids are hiding.So that's been a bit of an adjustment that I love church, but the environment of church can be very challenging. And the number of relationships at church can be very challenging. The more people you need to connect with, the more energy it takes to connect. So.And when you're on a staff team, you have to. You feel like you need to connect with everybody on a Sunday.So I'm enjoying now on a Sunday is being conscious for the afternoon because I still have some energy left.

Can I just say how much I love the fact that you just said that Part of your sitting up the back is also sitting with A coloring book.I feel like you doing that as an adult, you know, is good for you, but also good for other people and for kids to say, hey, if he can do that, that's okay for me as well. And that if that's going to help me.And so helping people to see that, that's not something to be downplayed, but that's a really wonderful tool for helping you engage. It's not you being disengaged.

And I've seen that with members of the congregation. They've gone one second. So I'm allowed to stand at the back and observe.I don't have to sit right up the front of the pew, or I can get up and move during the service. If I just need to stretch, that's okay. And going, yeah, that is okay. That's. You need to be comfortable here.You need to be in the best place to love and serve God and the people around you. If that means moving around a little bit, do it.

Wonderful for. I mean, there'll be people with back pain. There'll be people who have small children or are pregnant.There'll be people who actually need to move for their physical body as well. Joel, I love that.That model that you've just kind of accidentally given us here that we, Dave and I keep talking about, thinking through things, thinking through what we can eliminate, mitigate, and how to regulate. And you've identified that being amongst a crowd can be draining. And so you've eliminated the drain from the crowd by sitting at the back.You've mitigated some of the sound by putting your earplugs in and you're regulating with the coloring book. And so it's just like this really kind of helpful mini example. Isn't that wonderful? You haven't just done one of those things.If you've needed more, you're able to think through more.And I love that so many of those things are actually in your control because you're able to sit at the back and you're modeling how other people can use that to still be present, still be at church. How lovely.

It sounds like you've put a lot of things in place and you thought carefully about what's helpful for you. Are there. Are there challenges that you go, man, even with all that, this is still challenging, this is still hard, and it might always be hard.I don't know.

Yeah. So for me, the hardest thing is being a dad of neurodiverse kids. How my kids are coping on a Sunday morning can really affect church.So sometimes I'll walk in the church already exhausted already and just going to. I've already had enough. I'm only here because I value church and I value my church family.If it wasn't for that, I would be crawling under a rock somewhere. So there are so many factors that are going on that can affect church on Sunday that most people don't see.So they'll see my kids arrive and they're going, okay, they're looking, okay, I'm going. Yeah. It's taken us an hour to get there.Although I've lived close to church, we staggered our arrival so there are five of us and often we arrive at five different times. So that's just life for us. So, yeah, things are still challenging, but because of my commitment to my church, family often have to push through it.But knowing that, yep, I'm going to do enough to be seen, enough to be encouraging, and then I'm getting out to recover.

Yeah, I love that commitment to, to going to church. Even though it's hard, you know, there are certainly gonna be times where you go for whatever reason today this is just not gonna work.But there was a time in my life after I finished working at a church where for six months I just had to tell my feet, you have to walk to church. And I got nothing out of those church services. I just, I was pretty depressed the whole time.But I wanted to say I've got a really high picture of church because God has a really high picture of church. He thinks that gathering with God's people is good. And what I'm going through now is a season.And so, you know, whether that's with young kids or a particularly difficult teenager or whatever it is, maintaining that connection, finding ways to make it more helpful. But sometimes it is going to be hard, but saying, you know, there's going to be long term value if I keep going at that. That seems important.

That's so helpful to hear from you both on. On Daisy experiences and. That's right, Dave. It's seasons, isn't it?It can be helpful to remember that we, that yeah, people around us are going through seasons. And you know, I know I've been through seasons with babies and there, there are just times with that as well.You've got to remind yourself at seasons, but also there are things that won't come in seasons. So there will be things that you will have for all of your life. And it's just really helpful to hear, hear you speaking about that, Joel.And Joel, what you've been saying here about Your interaction with church and the way that you're modeling this for others as well makes me think as well about some things you've told me about how you operate on Christian camps as well. So I've got kids who are at camp age, and it's encouraging to me to hear some of the ways that you're supporting neurodivergent kids.Could you just share some of these things that you've put in place over time?

Sure thing. So there's one particular camp that I serve on that is a very large camp. There's two or three hundred people on the camp that week.And I had always struggled on that camp, especially during the big time together, because it was loud, it was very intense, lots of people.And I'd found that even though I'd been on that camp for years, I could count on one hand how many times I'd actually physically been able to go into that room. Normally, I'd have to stand outside because I couldn't cross the threshold.And other people started thinking, if Joel is like that, I'm sure we've got a stack of campers who are also struggling but don't feel like they can stand outside like a leader can. So we've been thinking through how we can love those campers.So on that particular camp, we've set up a space in a separate room where we live, stream everything, where we keep the lights down low. We've got different things to help campers be comfortable.We station a couple of liters there and just say, if you need to exit that space, come over here. I'll have a supply with me. I'll have a whole crate all week with earmuffs, with fidgets, with soft things to cuddle.And those campers know that anytime they can come and just grab it and use those items because they're there to be used. And the best thing and the most essential thing is on their registration forms.When I see that they've got some kind of neurodiversity written on their form, I will track them down at sign in. I will wait at the sign in desk, listen for their names, then pull them aside and say, I'm your guy.If you need help advocating for yourself, if you need something that you're not getting, you come straight to me. I'm there for you. I understand the struggle, and I want to make sure this camp is the best for you.So then I'm able to look out for those campers throughout the week because I've already had a conversation with them. And just checking with them going, this okay. Or if I see them being distressed, I can go. I think I know why. Can I jump in and help you?Because we want them to have the best week possible.We want them to grow in their knowledge and love of God and in their relationships with others, but they don't necessarily have the tools yet at that age to know what to ask for, to know that they can ask for things.

So good. Joel. I mean, you're obviously really embedded in Christian and church culture and have been for a long time.And I suspect you're aware that there are ways that people say to do things. It's like standard ways. This is how you should read the Bible. This is how you should pray every day or every week. And there's sort of a.There's an expectation that if you. You must do it in this way. And then you're barely Christian if you don't. Perhaps at its worst, I've found, like, with praying.So all my life, trying to concentrate for the length of time that people pray for is like scaling Mount Everest. Often in group prayers where we've shared prayer points.I'll try and jump in first, because the chance of me remembering not only what people have asked for, but remembering what other people have prayed for so that I don't just pray for the same person and the same thing again is, you know, it's just terrifying every time I approach that. Have you come across that sort of thing, and do you have ways of managing that or better ways of going forward?

100% That. It's exactly my experience. I was going to share some examples that you've just shared them all. So I. I really struggle. Yeah. Keeping track.Especially if it's like a prayer night at church and everyone's in a circle and going, we're just gonna pray for these things. I'll make sure I get in first because I won't remember what's being prayed for. I will lose concentration.And even though people are praying multiple times, I only get in once because I'm gone. So things like that are really difficult. But one of the ways I try and address that is through a structure.So if I'm in my small group and we're praying, we'll pray. We'll know who we're praying for at the start.So going, okay, we're gonna pray for the person I left, so that way I can put my maximum amount of effort into remembering the prayer points of the person I left. So even if I don't go first, I'm praying for Jack. I'm gonna remember Jack's prayer points.My Bible study leader, he'll actually send out a text on our WhatsApp group with everybody's prayer points. So he'll write them down as people are sharing. So if I do forget, I have their prayer points written in front of me on my phone.So when I miss Bible study group, I always know when it's time for prayer because I'll get the alert WhatsApp group. So structure is helpful and being aware, being told what to pray for is helpful.Saying, we just gotta pray for stuff and going, I need more structure than that. Just like my kids need scaffolding at school to how do you write an assignment? I need that for prayer time. I need to know, okay, we're gonna.Here are the bullet points for the missionary we're praying for. You can add if you want to, but if you just stick to prayer points, that's also great.Having a lot of structure in prayer time and in Bible reading as well. Going, okay, I'm gonna tick off these chapters today or I'm gonna have a plan in place.So I'm still meditating on God's word, but daily Bible reading, it's great. But nowhere in Scripture does it say, you should read for the entire Bible in a year. It's just not there.So we need to listen to the word of God in a way that is helpful, but not just do things because that's how they've been done for the last 50 years. And a lot of things we're doing have only been done for the last 50 years.

Yeah, totally. Just as you're talking, I'm thinking, man, I need to find out more about how Joel does things. I'm just coming back to the coloring.

In.

During the sermon.I've been preaching for a couple of decades now, but my wife always points out I am a horrible sermon listener, partly because I've got particular ideas about how to preach, but also because preacher will say something and that will spark five thoughts about I'll be 10 times down the line of thinking about what's happening in a country in Africa when he's just mentioned something completely different, but it's just sent me off in that direction. So is coloring something for you that's helpful to just keep you on track, or are there other things that you do for that?

So I'm always looking for things to reduce external stimuli. So coloring for me means that if I'm picking my colors, I'm carefully going within the lines.I'm doing my blending and shading or whatever I'm doing, I'm paying less attention to the sound the electricity is making going through the air con. I'm paying less attention to somebody fiddling next to me.And therefore it frees up space, like ram, if you will, for my ears to hear what's being said. While it looks like I'm distracted, what I'm actually doing is distracting myself from everything other than what I want to be focused on.So looking at things like if somebody's crocheting during church or they're using a fidget toy or they're getting up and walking, it's not that they're distracted from what you're saying, but maybe they're like me and they take in every input equally. And you need to reduce some of those inputs in order to focus on one thing. So that's what the coloring does for me.It helps me to lock out other things so I can just go, okay, I can hear what's being said up the front.

Oh, that's wonderful. I love that you've figured out strategies along the way and that you're happy to say some things in kind of standard current church culture.I don't have to do. Do those I can. So. So not everyone's coloring, but that doesn't mean you can't color. You're able to color, but, you know, in.In conversation and with thought for people around you too, like you're ready to explain to people why you're coloring. Not just high and mighty, deciding that this is how it's going to be, but in conversation. I love that. Being able to speak that through.What an encouragement that you've. You're wanting to be hearing the sermon, that you know that the sermon's for everyone and.And that it should be accessible and that you've made that accessible. And I look forward to churches that adapt and have so many people where you can look around the church building and there's someone coloring.There's someone standing at the back spinning around. There's someone whose eyes are closed as they're listening because that helps them take it in. There's someone crocheting.How lovely that it can be this picture of difference while still doing the same activity, which is the digging into God's Word. I love that.

Yeah. Because the goal is digging into God's Word. The goal is not sitting quietly. Is it correct?Or sitting in a particular stance or sit, whatever the word is. And so whatever helps you to listen to God's Word with God's people and.

In community as well, knowing that there'll be some people who actually need to not have the visual stimulation of someone coloring in next to them and so working out ways for people to sit in places that work for them and be moving or doing or sitting still according to what works for them and not imposing that picture on other people around them as well. Yeah. Lovely. Well, Joel, this has been really helpful. I feel like we could actually talk for a really long time, but we're going to stop it here.And we're really thankful to have had you on and we look forward to I'm sure, hearing from you down the line as well. And we're really thankful as well to you for your advocacy in this space and for speaking up and sharing experiences and tips and ideas.It's really helpful.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much, Jill. Well, everyone, we're getting towards the end of season two and it's been lots of fun.We've still got two more episodes after this one, but we are going to struggle to do season three if we don't have more financial support. We're really thankful to the people who have thrown in some money and that's been such a wonderful blessing. Thank you very much.But we do need a significant amount more before we can kick off with season three. So if you're able and if you see the value, then please think about going to the website faithfulgod.net and becoming a supporter.But for now, thank you so much. Thank you, Kate, and thank you, Joel, for joining us for this episode. Bye, everyone.